Greg Apps: The Secret to Audition Success | Two Unemployed Actors Ep 109

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GREG
how do we know what to do to show what we that we're right for that role? That's not the goal.

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GREG
That film was the film I had the most. Not that song.

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MAX
Really?

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GREG
that takes one person or something. And I don't like that.

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GREG
And those casting directors

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GREG
and really casting directors.

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MAX
What's the most common reason and otherwise talented actor gets a no from

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GREG
What did you do that made me pay attention? What did you how did you capture

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GREG
disagree with you. Yep,

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GREG
And so many actors don't know don't understand yet.

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MAX
Welcome back to two unemployed actors. I'm actor Max Belmonte.

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MAX
have you ever wondered why you're getting a no. Even when your tape is perfect. Today we're sitting down with casting director Greg Apps to dismantle the myths of the audition room and find out what it actually takes to stand out in a very crowded industry.

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MAX
Welcome. Greg, thank you for making the time to talk. Well, directly to the acting community.

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MAX
And speaking of acting, can we stop talking about your experience, the evolution of Greg Apps, the actor, because weren't you in Rocky Horror Show?

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GREG
I was indeed

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GREG
it was indeed at a time when sort of being in The Rocky Horror Show was something very, very special. Let me tell you,

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GREG
I actually sort of did speech training, and I did that through high school. And then in and then I got an agent, you know, because they, you know, they asked my kind of my speech teacher.

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GREG
And the thing about auditions back in those days, I'm talking the kind of the early 70s, the thing about auditions in those days is it's pretty fax machine, three computer pre everything. So, in fact, when you've got an audition, what happened was, is they said, oh, I'll go to the ABC at this time and here's the address. And when you got there they put audition sides in your hands.

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GREG
And then what you do is, is you do a cold read with the producer, usually with the producer across the table, because the producer, of course, had opposite you so that they could see you. And then what they did is they took a Polaroid, Polaroid of him, you know, you went in with ten by eight in your resume.

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GREG
They took a Polaroid of you. And that's the kind of the classic era when you got

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GREG
cast on Polaroid.

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MAX
Oh my God.

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GREG
They had to do it by memory because it's like there was no taping, right?

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MAX
So they've got the Polaroids to refresh their memory on your performance in the room. So I guess you really got to make an impact.

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GREG
Well, it's a little hard when it's a cold read sitting in a chair in an office. I remember I did have I did have an audition for number 96.

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GREG
Right.

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GREG
And I remember though, because, you know, there is no there was no mobile phone. So I remember I went out for a day and turned Taiwan on. I do I want to be honest with my mates.

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GREG
And I rang my parents in the morning to say sorry I didn't make it home last night and they said, radiant rain, just about to your left. You've got an audition on this morning. I said, oh my God. So I went home and had a shower and got ready and went to the place and yes, got a cold room.

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GREG
And there I was, sitting in a chair playing, chasing on the beach, having not slept for 24 hours.

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GREG
Made no sort of aligning with that story. I didn't get the job.

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GREG
And the other thing was, and this, this shows you the evolution of the way taping has come.

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GREG
Yeah.

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GREG
What happened was, is because, you know, they were very excited to say, and we're videotaping this, we've got a videotape, we've got a camera. But what I did was, is I sat opposite the producer because that's where that's what you always did.

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GREG
You said. Right. And the producer was there, and the camera was off to the side, and the reader was off to the other side. And they said, can you look at can you favor camera when you deliver your line? So the person I'm talking to is there, but they want me to talk this way. And the producer was the person, which is where the camera should have been.

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GREG
I've seen I've seen Kate auditions from infinity.

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MAX
that is quite the evolution of the casting process. And and from both sides, I mean, well, first of all, the biggest burning question for me is do you still try on the fish nets every now and then just reminisce about Rocky Horror?

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GREG
I don't know that I can admit that publicly.

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MAX
All right. Well, in fact, if you were if you were casting a revival today, what's the most important quality you'd look for in a modern Brad or Janet?

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GREG
Interestingly enough, I did this a few years ago now, but I was asked to cast, I think there were 2 or 3 roles that sort of, you know, I think it was the building trust organization, The Rocky Horror Show. I was asked to cast and I had to cast three characters for something like that, one of which was Brad.

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GREG
Right. And

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GREG
I got to say, the the guys that came in all triple threats, singer, dancer, actors. Fantastic. I would have never stood a chance because I was an actor, I wasn't right. You know.

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MAX
Yeah.

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GREG
Luckily with Brad, I don't think he's supposed to be a kind of a red hot dancer. So therefore I fit it in perfectly. But what you would look for, I mean, so much. And I mean Rocky Horror is a kind of a good example.

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GREG
So much is visual,

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GREG
and it is that you need to keep in mind, you know, where do you fit visually?

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GREG
what are your strong points? You know, it's kind of like, you know, when I, when I left, I said, and I say this to this very time, go and look at or Google or I the kind of the great

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GREG
movie character actors who that were in small parts in the 70s and 80s and you'll see faces there that, you know, you don't know their names.

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GREG
You you might know 1 or 2 of their credits because they were, you know, fabulous in something if you know exactly the character they play,

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GREG
because that's the way casting was done back then. It was kind of, you know, not it wasn't deeply considered. They didn't do lots of auditions and things like that. What they did was, you know, it was did I say, I think it was the kind of, you know, the support staff, the kind of the the admin in the producers office that that made the choices.

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GREG
And so they said, oh, we'll get so-and-so in for the baddie because he's played it before.

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GREG
I know he can do the role.

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MAX
do you think you're acting perspective

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MAX
influenced the way you treat actors over the years when they've walked into your casting

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GREG
Yeah, I think though that treatment, that treatment, if you ask any experience casting director, they'll say the same thing, that that treatment is not just in the room, that treatment is in the waiting room. Yeah. It's like, you know, I'm aging myself to say waiting room in the room and all that kind of thing. I know, but it's kind of like, you know, it's about

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GREG
it's about relaxing them and making them feel like they're in a comfortable situation.

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GREG
From the waiting room because, yeah, you know, for anybody who'd been through that process and all of the new actors haven't that, you know, I've asked actors, you know, have you met your agent? And so many of them haven't have never been face to face with their agents.

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GREG
I did a post me, you know, on my Facebook page and had talked about so that, you know, what do you miss most about sort of acting in the 70s and 80s or what do you miss most about your age?

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GREG
And everybody would go into their agent weekly because there was no digital transfer of funds. So for you to get paid, it was a check

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GREG
and

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GREG
you'd go in if you were working, you'd have to go in and get your check. But you went into the agency and there was always 2 or 3 actors to chat to. But then when you went to an audition, you sat in the waiting room and there were six or 7 or 8 actors, but you always were always in the room because you were always up for the same role.

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GREG
there is that kind of engagement. And I think that isolation, that sort of has been created by Self-Tapping. I think that isolation is increasing, the kind of, you know,

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GREG
mental health. Yeah,

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GREG
you know, concerns or kind of, you know, the pressure, the stress that is put upon. I mean, and it's only put upon you by yourself.

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MAX
Yeah.

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GREG
But there is no kind of, you know, a collaborative feel. There's no kind of no community feel in the cell taping process, which is a

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GREG
challenge.

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MAX
Yeah. And actors, it's more pressure to to have to do more to stay engaged in the industry in every level because it is so much. You're in the room staring at your camera, doing so many more takes you probably don't need to do, but it's in your head.

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GREG
You've got no feedback, you've got no kind of, you know, you have a digital reader, you know, so it's like they're not there to help you. And you know what I do now?

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MAX
this is something that I'm really interested to know, because you've been credited with casting some career breakout roles for stars like Russell Crowe, Guy Pearce and Eric Bana, just to name a few. Is there a common thread or a specific energy you remember seeing in them before they were famous?

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GREG
I think there's a psychological approach with actors

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GREG
and to do with, and it's to do with the whole kind of journey of being an actor of sort of, you know, sort of being tested. You know, you are tested. You walk into your step in front of a camera for an audition, and you feel like you're on show. You are, to a certain extent, but the actor that can transcend that, that actually gets out there and actually creates a kind of an identity for this character that is unique to them.

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GREG
It's probably an extension of a lot of their own qualities, and it's like it's that territory. So many actors come in

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GREG
with the kind of the desire to be to, you know, to want to please, to want to give them what they want. How many times have them actor came into the room for me and said, just tell me what you want.

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GREG
It's in the there's a clip.

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GREG
There's a clip on line of Johnny Drama auditioning for CSI in entourage.

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GREG
if you haven't seen it, you've got to look it up because all the people in the room, the producer, the director of the casting director are the actual producer, director, casting director. But he walks in and they just nail what the experience is.

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GREG
There's a waiting room of everybody who goes, yeah, and but he walks into the room and he says, oh, what do you want, guys? Just tell me what you want, because I can do this and in different ways.

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GREG
And it is. And that's your feeling as an actor. You know what? You know what I'm supposed to deliver. So just tell me.

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GREG
And then we both know and I'll deliver it for you. And that's know that. And it's not that we don't know. I guess we don't know what we don't want or we know what we don't want.

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GREG
Yeah,

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GREG
it's not that we don't know the character. Yeah, the

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GREG
character can be various things. So I think, you know what I'd sort of love actors to appreciate, understand, is that the kind of the casting process is character evolution.

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GREG
It's kind of, you know, the character is evolving and taking shape in our mind,

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GREG
you know, and then

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GREG
you know, the actor that you always had envisaged for that role sort of says, oh, no, I'm not interested or I'm not available. And you're you're going to see you've got to be open to go in different territory.

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MAX
really interesting.

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GREG
Casting the feature film, the interview. Right. If you go wheeling Tony Martin

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GREG
and what happened was, is we auditioned so many people

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GREG
and we asked Hugo if he would audition and he said, no, no, no, I'm not into the audition. And his agent said, you know, but he's happy to be offered the role. It's like, okay, so and after weeks of auditioning and it's just we just didn't find the person that captured the the enigmatic kind of, you know, duplicitous but out Woodley trusted soul of that character and Hugo Hugo came in and it was like

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GREG
new character, new film, new territory.

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GREG
He just he created the territory. And because that's basically

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GREG
we think there's a we go back as actors and we go and do more training to be better. This is what I'm trying to do. We're going to be better and better and better. If that was the case, if training was the be all and end all, if training was to be all and end all to sort of, you know, to booking a role, then why doesn't every night agreed to have the same career as Kate Blanchett?

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GREG
You'd go weaving or and you know, all the people that great way to combine

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GREG
therefore what I'm saying is, is

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GREG
you go and take more that kind of thing and all those other fabulous, fabulous graduates from Naida, because I thought that done is they've taken on the techniques, the training, and now I'm a bit like I always use the analogy of a sporting star.

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GREG
A sporting star doesn't have to remind themselves of the technical skills required to do a golf swing or do a forehand in tennis or something like that. They just know where and when they're in the middle of the game at game time. That techniques there. I don't have to concentrate on it. I don't have to show it. What I have to use is my instinct of what the next moment is in this match, in this.

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GREG
And that's that's what I'd love. Anchors to sort of how I'd love them to approach

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GREG
self tapes, screen tests, auditions, whatever it is. Just

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GREG
allow instinct to to be your to be your kind of your your flag, your your the kind of thing that drives your choices, your instinct.

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GREG

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MAX
That's a great point because I know, I know from my experience, sometimes I end up getting my own headspace and thinking, wait a minute, what do they want to see? What do they want? And I start to try and move towards what I think they want, rather than listening and trusting my own, my own instinct.

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GREG
take kind of inspiration from artists painting, painting and things like that. And there they are. They're there alone also, they're doing a self tape when they when they go to their studio and they're standing in front of a canvas and on of easel, it's just them and it's the one. And if you look at the kind of the great artists, the kind of great contemporary artists,

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GREG
they're not kind of, you know, creating an identity, creating a kind of a respect by sort of being right, by getting it right, by having that as their goal.

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GREG
It's kind of, you know, the impressionist art impressionist actor give us an impression of the character.

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MAX
So. So do you think instinct is important when it comes to like, how do you suggest actors inject life and spontaneity into a take when they are just staring at the lens in their spare bedroom over and over again, getting frustrated?

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GREG
Perhaps

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GREG
for a start, let's look at Robin Williams, Jim Carrey, actors like that, who? And I mean, I'd say Sam Rockwell. I'm a big fan of Sam Rockwell. Yeah. The thing is, in respect to those actors, they're not showing their technique. They're not showing their ability as an actor. They find their discovering territory that's totally different and unique.

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GREG
And I think part of the problem is in the audition process, I'm not talking about on set, I'm talking about the audition

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GREG
process. Yeah,

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GREG
the Odyssey is when you kind of bisects the character, and the character is kind of, you know, what a backstory and childhood and upbringing and all that kind of thing that happens in rehearsal, that happens when you've read the full script.

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GREG
You know who's playing your wife, your brother, your lover, your mother. Okay, you know that kind of territory. And now you can start to use those parameters. But from audition, it's like you get stuck talking. You get stuck with the kind of, you know,

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GREG
a solid relationship to the page. As many drama there's a lot of drama training teaches you to do when you get stuck having the strongest relationship you have with the page, that's what are you doing?

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GREG
You have a highlight pen and you say, you know, angrily or something like that. You know, you know, they don't get a whole lot of people get a black black text on black it out. You know, all those all those actors, those all drama teachers that say, what is the character feeling on that line? And then you go, well, you know, they're right upset and marginal.

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GREG
What you've got preordained

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GREG
feeling coming up to a moment in this character's life that is in five lines time and what and what goes through your head, what goes through your head when you're delivering that, that audition? It's kind of like you're getting ready to be upset because now you're visualizing the page, because you've spent so much time looking at the page.

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GREG
You're not visualizing that character or that relationship or that location and setting that community, not visualizing the page. And what do you so what do you see at that moment when you arrive at that moment in your audition, you remember one word upset, because that's the line. That's the word you wrote.

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MAX
Is this is this what you mean when you often say the script isn't the priority? The character is? Yeah,

00:17:05:19 - 00:17:20:04
MAX
because sometimes you you have all the best intentions, but you just especially yourself taping and I'm over analytical anyway. So you just end up getting getting caught and you had you have to step back and and realize and realign to what the priorities actually are.

00:17:20:05 - 00:17:23:20
MAX
You know, what you are trying to achieve and how you're trying to get there and what's worked for you in the past.

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MAX
Look, you've.

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GREG
Met I think, you

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GREG
know, keep in mind when you're doing an audition, keep in mind the audience. And I'm not saying, oh, it's a big, important casting director. I'm saying it's people who are looking at your performance and you're the 28th person they've seen who are all the right gender. Rite aid. Right. Look. Right, right, right right, right, right, right.

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GREG
Doing the same material again and again and again.

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GREG
Imagine this. Imagine being in a theater and you're sitting there in the theater and an actor comes out and stands front, center stage and delivers, delivers a scene. We applaud the actor. Lead stage next actor comes out. Stanton stacked at the same spot, exactly the same relationship and eyeline to the audience and the same material.

00:18:10:12 - 00:18:18:20
GREG
When as an audience member in that theater, do you want to go? We're right. We've seen that one. Yeah, yeah, you can you can go now.

00:18:18:22 - 00:18:27:22
GREG
And that's so I'm just asking. And this is this is a lot of the training that I have with actors because it is audition only. I'm talking about people

00:18:27:24 - 00:18:42:18
GREG
and I'm talking about the fact that sort of understand the relationship, reverse engineer your audition and sit in the seat of the audience, the casting director, what I call the audition audience, because it's only going to be seen by two, three, four people.

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GREG
But each one of those has the ability, the opportunity for potential to change your career.

00:18:47:09 - 00:18:48:01
MAX
Yeah.

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GREG
But not if you deliver the same that we've just seen.

00:18:50:22 - 00:18:52:06
MAX
Yeah.

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GREG
Or importantly, more importantly, the expectation of who you are, the relationship you have with that casting director, they know you always come in, you know, oh, that's one of the interesting things I get more so to do with the room. If an actor came in and sort of, you know, a character was angry, how does how do most actors display anger?

00:19:15:18 - 00:19:26:13
GREG
Volume shut. And so often I have to go out and and if if you're old enough to upset, sat in the waiting room and hear the previous actor and they're

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GREG
shouting, you know I've got a shout.

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MAX
It could be so unsettling.

00:19:41:16 - 00:19:54:16
MAX
Because it's the context to I mean, if you're having an argument, it's set in a cafe, in a busy cafe, you can be angry without any volume. You know, you're mindful of your surroundings, you're caught up in conveying what you need to

00:19:54:18 - 00:20:00:06
MAX
to affect the other character. And yeah, you just it's that's really interesting that you point that

00:20:00:08 - 00:20:06:18
GREG
And so often, so often we writers and scripts and especially if you're doing, you know, maybe daytime TV, soap opera.

00:20:06:22 - 00:20:42:14
GREG
The description of the feeling of the character, the emotion of the character is simplistic little and conflict. So it's angry, it's sad. It's it's kind of, you know, it's words that sort of are really clearly, concisely drawn. Why? Because the script is actually not not a document for the actor. It's a document for the producer because the writer is writing something to impress a producer saying, yeah, let's make this and you walk out and try and do exactly what, what's on the page.

00:20:42:14 - 00:21:10:10
GREG
So what I say, people, is, you know, when you're frustrated by sort of, you know, what do I do with this? It says the is angry. Go straight to the source and type angry in and get other words for anger. And now suddenly and it won't say shouted, you know it is frustrated complex. And that's angry at the

00:21:10:10 - 00:21:10:16
GREG
same.

00:21:10:19 - 00:21:12:16
MAX
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:12:20 - 00:21:13:10
GREG
Impatient.

00:21:13:15 - 00:21:25:02
MAX
And sometimes it's more real as you try and try and hide that. And that battle with trying to hide your anger sometimes resonates more than just standing there screaming at someone or poor reader. In this case,

00:21:25:05 - 00:21:35:01
MAX
you've mentioned in your past that your job is essentially saying no to 80% of people to get to the final dozen.

00:21:35:03 - 00:21:43:21
MAX
It might have been a casting network's interview, I think. But anyway, I've done my research. What?

00:21:43:23 - 00:21:45:21
MAX
So let's just say that

00:21:45:24 - 00:21:53:13
MAX
your job is saying no to a lot of people. What's the most common reason and otherwise talented actor gets a no from you?

00:21:53:18 - 00:22:22:02
GREG
If the performance, the character you delivered is predictable is expected? If I say you're in this forum where we're seeing so many people do exactly the same. So if you play the straight and narrow, and if that's the case, if that's the case, then we spoke earlier about, you know, visual culture, because so often the people who are getting those dates, they are roles, those those 50 words, they look like a cop, they look like a doctor or nurse, you know, they look like those things.

00:22:22:02 - 00:22:56:13
GREG
And so therefore they said, if you now deliver the expected, the predictable, now what happens is, is you get to be doctor too. If you're getting a lot of roles or opportunities, that is girlfriend doctor two, cop three. If you're getting those unidentified roles, that means you are being a kind of, you know, part of a seemingly part of the community not driving the story, not driving the relationship it's about.

00:22:56:14 - 00:23:12:23
GREG
And dare I say, it's the same journey that casting directors have been on. And arrow meaning 30 years ago, a doctor was a white Anglo-Saxon male in their 40s, all head of hair, glasses, you know, that was. That was the

00:23:13:02 - 00:23:13:09
GREG
doctor.

00:23:13:10 - 00:23:13:24
MAX
Yeah.

00:23:14:03 - 00:23:38:01
GREG
And, you know, nothing else. Nothing else was going sort of be a doctor. Can you imagine if I presented a tape for a doctor and that with full of white Anglo-Saxon males in their 40s, I'd never was again. I'd never work again. So what we are doing is casting directors is we are saying, how else can I kind of, you know, capture a doctor, even if it is that kind of, you know, that day player doctor three kind of thing.

00:23:38:07 - 00:24:04:06
GREG
It's still a case of sort of, you know, I need to I need to create separate identities for this community, for these different characters. Yeah. I remember in casting, they came to me with 3 or 4 of the gang in place, and I said to Jeffrey, I said, Jeffrey Wright, the director. I said, you know, with this game, they're all around about, including Russell Crowe and Daniel Pollack and Dan Wylie.

00:24:04:11 - 00:24:22:11
GREG
You know, they're all really actors all the same age. And I've got a feeling that sort of once we shave their head and turn them into skinheads, they're all going to look the same. Yeah. So now the kind of the approach of the casting director, as I said, we need to get some bad guys in here. We need to get some tall guys in there, some short guys.

00:24:22:11 - 00:24:27:14
GREG
We need to sort of play with the kind of the visual, the visual statement of the community.

00:24:27:16 - 00:24:34:09
MAX
certainly make it more realistic. And it definitely worked in that case. Robert Stanford was amazing.

00:24:34:11 - 00:24:35:07
MAX
Amazing.

00:24:35:13 - 00:24:38:16
GREG
That film was the film I had the most. Not that song.

00:24:38:17 - 00:24:40:08
MAX
Really?

00:24:40:10 - 00:24:40:24
GREG
Yeah.

00:24:41:01 - 00:24:43:11
MAX
Because of the subject matter. Yeah.

00:24:43:14 - 00:25:02:00
GREG
I must admit that I had a producer American producer, saying so how would you describe your career? How would you describe your work? What sort of projects do you do? And I said, I don't know. I've never been asked that, never considered. I said, testosterone if it's if it's if the film or the characters have got testosterone, then on your

00:25:02:02 - 00:25:04:00
GREG
next.

00:25:04:02 - 00:25:13:19
GREG
And I did get a, I did get a meeting for a very big film as a result of that. I blew the meeting. But but it is it's kind of like, you know, so wrong. It's not the chopper.

00:25:13:23 - 00:25:14:09
GREG
Yeah. You know,

00:25:14:09 - 00:25:16:19
GREG
those kinds of things that are kind of, you know,

00:25:16:21 - 00:25:19:24
GREG
in your face. So. And I think

00:25:20:05 - 00:25:23:01
GREG
so I'll be kind of, you know, circumspect here.

00:25:23:01 - 00:25:27:20
GREG
And I think that's to do with me sort of in a seated seeking reality,

00:25:28:00 - 00:25:28:14
GREG
right.

00:25:28:17 - 00:25:45:15
GREG
Seeking reality in characters in the performances. And so therefore, when you combine a kind of, you know, a socially, socially kind of, you know, aggressive part of the community and you make their performances real, then it's really it's got impact.

00:25:45:17 - 00:25:46:16
GREG
Yeah, it's got impact.

00:25:46:17 - 00:25:54:15
MAX
Yeah. I think that's it. The more relatable. Well, you know, the more real it looks. That's it, the more impactful it's going to be on the audience.

00:25:54:15 - 00:26:10:22
MAX
People often see casting directors as gatekeepers, but you've described the role as a bridge between the director, producer and the artist. And look, it's important to me because I'm busy trying to develop TV shows as a producer. In fact, when this episode is released, I would have just returned from screen forever.

00:26:10:22 - 00:26:20:19
MAX
So good luck to future Max. But can you talk to some of the challenges you faced from the production side that that the actors might not even appreciate, might not even know

00:26:20:21 - 00:26:27:17
GREG
The big change? I remember For proof with Russell Crowe when he first awarded for and Hugo Weaving.

00:26:27:17 - 00:26:45:15
GREG
And interestingly enough, sorry, sorry. And now I'm going to digress proof actually, it came to me with a different producer, same writer director, but with a different producer 12 months earlier, then came back to me with a new producer, and we had a cast in place for the original film and the two roles we changed.

00:26:45:16 - 00:26:55:18
GREG
We kept going to be the female, but the two roles we changed were Hugo Weaving and and the Russell Crowe role and the actors in the world.

00:26:55:20 - 00:26:56:17
MAX
Wow.

00:26:56:19 - 00:27:02:18
GREG
From the original choices who were on hold, who were on hold, you know. But now we're making a different sort of film.

00:27:02:22 - 00:27:06:21
GREG
The point is, is of when we kind of fruit or we can't run from all. All those

00:27:07:00 - 00:27:07:21
GREG
films. Yeah.

00:27:07:21 - 00:27:24:22
GREG
What happened was, is the producer and director and myself, the casting director, would sit there in a room and make a choice. And that was to us, that's doing the wrong. You would hope and think that kind of, you know, that that's how it works.

00:27:24:22 - 00:27:42:14
GREG
But the creative team, the creative kind of heart of the film, is being they are the ones that sort of had the major say no. And the problem is these days. The problem is, is that, you know, it's how many how many producer credits do we see on

00:27:42:14 - 00:27:42:20
GREG
show?

00:27:42:23 - 00:27:47:07
MAX
Yes. Executive producers. Oh my God. It's a long list.

00:27:47:09 - 00:27:51:20
GREG
It's a long list, but it's producer. Yeah, because

00:27:51:24 - 00:28:05:24
GREG
the project went through their hands at some time. And when it then goes, you know, it goes up the tree. So you write a script, you, you know, you go there to sort of, you know, try and sort of, you know, get people on board and a kind of a production company comes on and says, oh, Max, this is great.

00:28:06:00 - 00:28:11:04
GREG
Then we're going to do this. But you've just you've just inherited two new producers.

00:28:11:06 - 00:28:11:21
GREG
Yeah.

00:28:11:23 - 00:28:17:10
GREG
And their contract gives them a front of film credit and also.

00:28:17:12 - 00:28:30:13
GREG
Usually, even if all they are is a financier, and they do it at spreadsheets, which gives them consultation and task. So and I would describe that as casting by commission.

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:31:12
GREG
Yeah.

00:28:31:14 - 00:28:39:05
GREG
So therefore in an only case, I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a kind of a producer. And, you know,

00:28:39:07 - 00:28:44:03
GREG
when he's meeting people and sort of discussing ideas, he produces reality.

00:28:44:04 - 00:28:54:22
GREG
But when he's discussing ideas, that only takes one person in his meeting, you know, six, eight people, that takes one person or something. And I don't like that.

00:28:54:24 - 00:29:02:03
GREG
How does that impact an actor in terms of casting by committee? It only takes one person to know. No no no no, don't like it.

00:29:02:05 - 00:29:03:21
GREG
Yeah, I for this.

00:29:03:23 - 00:29:16:02
GREG
And so I've described that process, that result as that instead of getting the best actor for the role. I don't mean best as in the best actor, but the best choice for that character.

00:29:16:03 - 00:29:20:17
GREG
What we did is the least worst. The one that has the most number of criticisms.

00:29:20:18 - 00:29:23:18
GREG
Right? Right. Number of objections. Right.

00:29:24:00 - 00:29:35:06
GREG
I'm just lucky that I've actually, you know, because I started at the ABC as a casting director where the producers and directors did get choice, and then they then went freelance and filmmakers got their

00:29:35:08 - 00:29:35:17
GREG
choice.

00:29:35:23 - 00:29:39:17
GREG
Yeah. But later it's kind of, you know, it wasn't work.

00:29:39:21 - 00:30:12:13
MAX
From my perspective, it does seem that it's getting more complicated where you've got more co-productions to be able to get the funding to, to make what they want properly. And then you've got different regions in that, you know, it might be Ireland and their Film Commission and Australia and Screen Australia and everyone's wants a certain piece of it, and there's just so much involved from that and so many more decision makers are suddenly invited to the party, and it can just add layers of complexity to get the right funding.

00:30:12:14 - 00:30:33:05
MAX
You know, and then, yeah, and you've got film stars or, you know, film actors moving into television a lot more and and not leaving a lot of space for other TV actors. Certainly not. You know, by the time you're coming up for a guest, you're a 50 word. You know, you're competing with people who bring an audience with them almost.

00:30:33:07 - 00:30:44:13
MAX
There's just so much complexity to it now. It just feels like it's a it's a bigger world from the production side with so many more committees involved. Yeah.

00:30:44:14 - 00:30:45:16
GREG
That's go back to the

00:30:45:19 - 00:30:55:13
GREG
analogy of an artist in their studio with a canvas and and easy. It's like, you know, they are the ultimate creative contributor to that canvas.

00:30:55:15 - 00:30:57:00
MAX
Yeah.

00:30:57:02 - 00:30:58:17
GREG
And that,

00:30:58:19 - 00:31:25:20
GREG
you know, I think they've survived this kind of poll committee that I think as actors or kind of, you know, in production, especially in big production, there's no end of the number of suits that get to get it, say. And yet when talking co-productions, it's kind of like, you know, I think they actually have a formula of kind of like, okay, I under 26 and the UK gets.

00:31:25:22 - 00:31:30:18
GREG
And so therefore it goes down to. So that role will be carved from Ireland. That role.

00:31:30:18 - 00:31:33:08
MAX
Yeah. It's it can get complicated very quickly.

00:31:33:10 - 00:31:34:22
GREG
Well it's kind of formulaic.

00:31:34:23 - 00:31:36:01
MAX
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:36:03 - 00:31:38:14
GREG
Kind of, you know, the kind of the creativity, the

00:31:38:14 - 00:31:41:21
GREG
kind of the instinct of the filmmaker. Yeah.

00:31:41:23 - 00:31:47:22
GREG
Has kind of been, you know, the core director is the kind of, you know, the last one to know,

00:31:47:24 - 00:31:50:05
GREG
to have a few.

00:31:50:07 - 00:32:13:05
MAX
Yeah. Or in television. The director of episode two or, you know, the director of episode three or. Yeah, it's it's difficult. You're a cog in the wheel. Yeah. That's challenging. That's challenging. I think it's really delving more into the business side has certainly been something that I've loved doing, and it's been a lot more eye opening. Is that is that something you recommend to help actors in their development?

00:32:13:07 - 00:32:17:16
MAX
Just just be more engaged in the industry at different levels and be aware of what's going

00:32:17:22 - 00:32:26:14
GREG
that. I'm talking about the actor as an autonomous, creative individual. Right. And that's what I'd like to encourage

00:32:26:16 - 00:32:28:17
GREG
and empower the actors.

00:32:28:19 - 00:32:32:10
GREG
And the first thing to do is to do a simple online editing course.

00:32:32:15 - 00:32:36:05
GREG
I don't know, I can't get it myself, so I need a simple

00:32:36:11 - 00:32:52:09
GREG
one. The point being, and it's just be a demo reel. It's just look at all those people on social media who have taken who create a kind of a character and create an event, or in fact create a three character scene and they play each character.

00:32:52:11 - 00:32:56:20
GREG
And I'm just saying that's an exercise. What they've done is they've become a producer,

00:32:56:22 - 00:32:59:12
GREG
they've produced, and that's what you are as a self paper.

00:32:59:14 - 00:33:01:13
MAX
Yeah.

00:33:01:15 - 00:33:07:04
GREG
But if you have to do everything lighting, sound, camera, costume. Yes.

00:33:07:06 - 00:33:10:14
MAX
And it's. Yeah.

00:33:10:16 - 00:33:21:01
GREG
Where what is it? And a number of the people that I've worked with because we you can see that sort of I want to give actors the power to take ownership

00:33:21:01 - 00:33:24:11
GREG
and a number of people is.

00:33:24:13 - 00:33:29:10
GREG
Have gone off and made sort of, you know, when series vertical grants

00:33:29:12 - 00:33:35:20
GREG
if you haven't interviewed can fall. I suggest, you know, that's someone to speak to.

00:33:35:22 - 00:33:42:19
GREG
Can fall is somebody I've known a long time, but so did the course and then made a kind of started with a stage play, swipe right

00:33:42:22 - 00:34:04:05
GREG
But anyway, he put it on there as a play and it went so well that what he did was he then said, okay, let's take that and make that a, that a web series and created a comedy web series where he was the writer and producer and he played 10 or 15 different characters he displayed, which is what the essence of the play was about, and ended up being nominated for the Toronto Film Festival or something like

00:34:04:05 - 00:34:04:08
GREG
that.

00:34:04:09 - 00:34:05:05
MAX
It's amazing.

00:34:05:06 - 00:34:09:07
GREG
Yeah, but a Canadian? Yeah, yeah.

00:34:09:09 - 00:34:11:15
GREG
That's an actor. Who is

00:34:11:17 - 00:34:14:05
GREG
saying? It's the industry. I'm like, thing like

00:34:14:08 - 00:34:15:02
GREG
this. Yeah.

00:34:15:04 - 00:34:25:21
GREG
I'm not in love with standing in front of a camera and sort of stuck in me. And I don't think I'm not in love with the process of acting. I'm in love with the process of creating.

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:26:08
GREG
Yeah,

00:34:26:08 - 00:34:31:12
GREG
creating characters. And there is a food chain that creates characters.

00:34:31:14 - 00:34:38:02
GREG
It's like, you know, and everybody attributes the kind of the character to the writer.

00:34:38:04 - 00:34:58:09
GREG
Because I think letting the writer and the character is kind of the wrong thing. I think the writer owns the plot. I think the writer owns the story, the actor owns the character. And if you start from and you said have as an actor approach it, if you say you own the character now, you can create whatever you

00:34:58:11 - 00:35:11:19
GREG
I did a film in L.A. was going to shoot in Mexico, so I was flown over to where land spent four weeks casting in L.A.. Wonderful experience, but we auditioned Damian Lewis. This was back before he did home.

00:35:11:21 - 00:35:12:14
GREG
Home, right.

00:35:12:14 - 00:35:19:04
GREG
And so, you know, so we chatted with the director and sort of what it was a same set of the campsite.

00:35:19:06 - 00:35:36:11
GREG
And of course, you know, so here's the camera and there's the stage. And it's like so often I have actors, I'll come in and I'll sort of see there's a line on the floor where the lighting sound is best. And I walked in and they'll put their toes on that spot because they know that's their huge, that's their responsibility, stands on the mark.

00:35:36:13 - 00:35:53:06
GREG
What he did for this campsite was he headed to the far corner of the room and leant up against the back wall, because he figured that's the kind of the way the relationship he'd have with that community, with that setting. That's the physical relationship he would have that his starting

00:35:53:09 - 00:35:54:03
GREG
point

00:35:54:05 - 00:35:56:18
GREG
and sure, okay, he's going for a major role.

00:35:56:18 - 00:36:00:14
GREG
So somebody on camera and they're going to follow him. But it's that thinking,

00:36:00:16 - 00:36:01:03
GREG
yeah,

00:36:01:03 - 00:36:03:04
GREG
it's that freedom.

00:36:03:06 - 00:36:06:23
GREG
And so many actors don't know don't understand yet.

00:36:07:00 - 00:36:07:12
MAX
Yeah.

00:36:07:14 - 00:36:09:22
GREG
You don't know that there is

00:36:09:24 - 00:36:20:19
GREG
there's room to move. And you can you can cite all the examples of casting directors who say, what are you doing? You're not you're not standing on the mark. What are you doing? You're not facing the reader. What are you doing? You don't have a playing background.

00:36:20:21 - 00:36:22:18
GREG
And those casting directors

00:36:22:20 - 00:36:24:08
GREG
and really casting directors.

00:36:24:14 - 00:36:24:21
MAX
Yeah.

00:36:24:23 - 00:36:34:08
GREG
Okay. This the traffic cop integrated traffic, and I'm not even going to mention names and sort of but we've all had that experience

00:36:34:11 - 00:36:44:01
GREG
that we feel like we are there. And being being subjugated to what they want. And that sits in the back of our mind that every casting director is like that.

00:36:44:07 - 00:36:45:07
MAX
Yeah.

00:36:45:09 - 00:36:47:08
GREG
Not not not the special one.

00:36:47:09 - 00:36:57:21
MAX
So don't be too safe. Don't be too obedient and and just follow the script. But make sure you own that character and help create that character.

00:36:57:23 - 00:36:59:18
GREG
Not just having the character done in the

00:36:59:22 - 00:37:00:07
GREG
space.

00:37:00:12 - 00:37:00:22
MAX
Yeah.

00:37:00:23 - 00:37:19:02
GREG
And the space. And you know, I liked it. I'm following my own advice, but there are times when I actually sort of come by him and sort of talk to you, and I'm doing that because it's like I'm giving myself the freedom, the ownership of the frame.

00:37:19:04 - 00:37:25:05
GREG
And in fact, so here's the mark. Yep. I'm standing in a medium closer.

00:37:25:06 - 00:37:30:08
GREG
Yep. Okay. And what we do and we feel we can't move off that mark.

00:37:30:10 - 00:37:35:13
GREG
It's almost like. And you can see you won't have to balance vectors.

00:37:35:15 - 00:37:40:01
GREG
If you do an audition where you don't move your feet.

00:37:40:03 - 00:37:46:03
GREG
You don't need to think because it's almost like you feed a staple down to the floor is you're standing on the mark.

00:37:46:05 - 00:37:50:13
GREG
What I want you to understand is there's real estate in that space

00:37:50:15 - 00:38:11:01
GREG
between the mark and the. That's what. There's also real estate audition, real estate between the mark and became. And each one of those that freedom that you take allows you to create a different status, a different power of the character.

00:38:11:03 - 00:38:17:00
GREG
But until you understand that you have that freedom, you'll never know to take it.

00:38:17:00 - 00:38:24:11
MAX
That's right. It's like we see that line, we see the tape, and we go for it. We love direction.

00:38:24:13 - 00:38:24:18
GREG
I was

00:38:24:20 - 00:38:32:12
GREG
casting for so long as we had offices just inside the gates of Fox Studios, and I think we over the years, we replaced the tape about six

00:38:32:12 - 00:38:38:02
GREG
times because we just got so one out. No, I quite like it being so worn and.

00:38:38:07 - 00:38:49:23
MAX
I can relate to that. It's just too easy to fall into a routine and you just can't. You can't afford to do that as as an artist, you know, you need to keep it fresh. And on the other side of it, when you're when you're watching the tapes,

00:38:49:23 - 00:38:51:16
MAX
especially now with all the self tapes, of course,

00:38:51:18 - 00:39:04:09
MAX
How long does it actually take for you to know if an actor's right, or what can they do in those first 10s to really make Greg apps lean in and pay attention?

00:39:04:11 - 00:39:06:09
GREG
He says, leaning in.

00:39:06:11 - 00:39:09:12
GREG
I think the thing to understand is, is that, you know,

00:39:09:12 - 00:39:20:05
GREG
and you've just asked the question, how do we know what to do to show what we that we're right for that role? That's not the goal. Yeah, the goal is to be remembered.

00:39:20:07 - 00:39:25:04
GREG
The goal is to I mean, does an artist stand in front of a canvas and paint something and go, wow, great.

00:39:25:04 - 00:39:48:00
GREG
I can sell that for five grand. That's not the goal. The goal is I've done something that feeds my creative soul, pleases me creatively, but more important, makes a statement about who I am and what my work is that actually speaks to people in a general sense. How does that apply to auditions? The thing the goal is to be remembered.

00:39:48:02 - 00:40:06:23
GREG
The goal is to be remembered, not to book the job. And if you actually go, okay, I need to be remembered because it's like if you walk in and you know and do everything wrong, it's it's like, because what we're looking at when we look at the tape, sure, we've got this in our mind. I of sort of, you know, what we're looking for to cast the role.

00:40:07:00 - 00:40:16:17
GREG
If somebody comes in and does something really different and individual and it's like, then we note that that's in our minds. I know face. We've all got

00:40:16:23 - 00:40:23:01
GREG
that. Yeah, we've all got that impression. Yeah. It's like you know.

00:40:23:03 - 00:40:42:05
GREG
From a long time ago I started quoting a story of sort of at a dinner party, and there's this kid knob in a blood, sort of a lion shirt. And so, you know, just kind of an arrogant, narcissistic, you know, and you look at photographs of that night and bang, you go straight back to knob, you go straight back to that feeling.

00:40:42:07 - 00:40:43:23
GREG
Yeah. Okay.

00:40:44:00 - 00:40:50:08
GREG
That's not a bad thing because as I was, you know, if I'm auditioning for something, if I'm casting for something and I need a knob,

00:40:50:10 - 00:40:51:18
GREG
the first person that comes from.

00:40:51:18 - 00:40:54:17
MAX
100%.

00:40:54:19 - 00:40:57:05
GREG
He went to that dinner party to be remembered.

00:40:57:08 - 00:40:57:16
GREG
Yeah,

00:40:57:16 - 00:41:10:18
GREG
and that's what I'm asking. That's what I'm empowering actors to do, is to serve, you know, to find the identity identities, because it's not like, oh, what's my brand thinking? It's kind of, you know, this little box that you sit

00:41:10:21 - 00:41:12:03
GREG
in? No, it's

00:41:12:05 - 00:41:14:20
GREG
kind of, you know, what sort of cock would you create?

00:41:14:23 - 00:41:19:21
GREG
What sort of bureaucrat would you create? What kind of business would you create?

00:41:20:00 - 00:41:24:08
GREG
think of the kind of character that meth human created for waterfall strength.

00:41:24:10 - 00:41:24:18
GREG
Yeah.

00:41:24:20 - 00:41:32:23
GREG
One thing, one thing. But it would have been. Hey, Matthew, do you want to. Or he would have read the script and gone. I want to play that role.

00:41:33:00 - 00:41:37:05
GREG
And of course, you got you got it. And he also says, and I want to do what I want to do. You

00:41:37:09 - 00:41:46:03
GREG
know, you got that to do. It's like. But he took ownership. Yeah. And that's the thinking that you have to do. You have to sort of, you know, find

00:41:46:05 - 00:41:51:15
GREG
find the territory of that character, that version of the character that makes you stand out.

00:41:51:17 - 00:42:01:03
GREG
I had a had one of our graduates say that he was auditioned for one of those 50 word of those days play a role for a CIA guy,

00:42:01:05 - 00:42:10:03
GREG
and he auditioned. And of course, the CIA guys glasses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all that kind of thing, you know? Yeah.

00:42:10:05 - 00:42:24:21
GREG
He played in bumbling. Imagine a kind of a CIA agent being cast as bumbling. The entrance of the women happen. But what did happen was he got a phone call straight away saying, please audition for this role. He was. What he did was he met the men,

00:42:25:01 - 00:42:27:01
GREG
he cut through.

00:42:27:03 - 00:42:32:22
GREG
He was memorable. And now he gets an opportunity with bigger role because we've seen a different side of it.

00:42:33:03 - 00:42:41:12
GREG
Whereas if he just went in there to deliver a guy like before, the other people were saying he would have blended in.

00:42:41:14 - 00:43:00:14
MAX
That's the problem. Sometimes actors see the role, they don't see the person, and they'll go in playing a cop. But but this is a real person whose job just happens to be as a police officer, you know, you have to take it a step back and remember that there's a person, there's a real character in there. Let's get into it.

00:43:00:16 - 00:43:19:13
GREG
Another analogy I you imagine 12 art students and they all go to. You're in Sydney. So I can say this, but imagine they go to Lady Macquarie's chair and we say paint the opera house and the Harbor Bridge. Okay. 12 different students, all given the same subject matter, like like actors being given the same script.

00:43:19:15 - 00:43:21:06
GREG
Yeah. Who stands up?

00:43:21:08 - 00:43:34:01
GREG
The one that sort of creates an individuality, isn't it? Yeah. It's not the one that gets the harbor bridge exactly right and gets the right number of rivets or the right, you know, it's here we are back at the Impressionist art.

00:43:34:03 - 00:43:36:04
MAX
Now, in addition to.

00:43:36:10 - 00:43:37:16
GREG
I am a little bit

00:43:37:18 - 00:43:45:00
GREG
counterintuitive, I do kind of. And you and anybody listening can shoot you down in flames

00:43:45:00 - 00:43:46:15
GREG
and

00:43:46:17 - 00:43:51:06
GREG
disagree with you. Yep, yep. That's my hope.

00:43:51:08 - 00:44:04:17
MAX
In addition to being in addition to working as a casting director, you also run the audition technique and so correctly if I'm wrong, but it's a business where you can offer courses to help actors in their development, even one on one coaching.

00:44:04:20 - 00:44:37:12
GREG
yes, it's a website that is, and it is purely because my experience and my understanding is not with script analysis or kind of, you know, or writer intent, character intent and all that kind of thing. My whole, my whole journey, my whole career is all about there is a character who sits in this box, and if you stand on the mark, you stand on the mark and face the person you're talking to and deliver the lines in a really well and you're loud on the angry part.

00:44:37:13 - 00:44:38:23
GREG
Okay, that's a

00:44:39:00 - 00:44:40:12
GREG
predictable, that's

00:44:40:14 - 00:45:02:12
GREG
expected. What I'm trying to do is to empower actors to sort of, you know, look outside, just think outside the square, think outside the kind of the, the, the process don't. Because as I say, it's this relationship with the page that you think the page has all the answers. No, you know, he has opportunities, but you could take

00:45:02:14 - 00:45:20:22
MAX
That's that's really interesting. I think it's a way to move from being trying to be just a better actor to to really being a smarter one. And I think, yeah, the audition technique just it really helps appreciate the business side of it, the casting director side of it of course, but but also, yeah, how to be a smarter actor.

00:45:20:23 - 00:45:21:07
MAX

00:45:21:09 - 00:45:22:17
GREG
Everything I know about audition.

00:45:22:23 - 00:45:23:10
MAX
Yeah.

00:45:23:15 - 00:45:30:23
GREG
I've learned from watching watching an actor in the room or watching a tape and go, how did you do that?

00:45:31:00 - 00:45:34:18
GREG
What did you do that made me pay attention? What did you how did you capture

00:45:34:24 - 00:45:36:15
GREG
that? And that's

00:45:36:19 - 00:45:48:05
GREG
that's my, my, my audition handbook is from all actors that I've seen because, I mean, I've been auditioning since 1982.

00:45:48:07 - 00:45:49:13
GREG
I started the ABC.

00:45:49:16 - 00:45:50:01
MAX
Right?

00:45:50:04 - 00:45:52:04
GREG
So it's kind of you.

00:45:52:04 - 00:46:05:24
MAX
a little bonus question if you like, and you don't have to answer, but is there an actor that you passed on early in their career who went on to become like a big star, massive star, and proving that even a casting legend can be surprised?

00:46:06:05 - 00:46:30:06
GREG
Oh look, it all comes down to getting the kind of the the right combination of things, you know? I mean, who could possibly predict that? Cate Blanchett, there she is graduating from Nida. Like all the other actors who could, we'd say, wow, what a great actor. And yeah, yeah, yeah, that's partly to lead to could possibly predict that she'd have a career that is every actors dream.

00:46:30:08 - 00:46:54:10
GREG
You know, she gets to play other play all sorts of roles. But and this is the thinking also that I want to ask you to do because for me self-tapping self taping is self taping when you sell tape. You've been tested. When you're auditioning, you're being tested. That's sort of precious. What's, you know, because you've got to get it.

00:46:54:12 - 00:47:06:03
GREG
Well, your first goal is to get it right, which is goal. But you've got to get it kind of got to make sure that I get it. And what's the first thing that goes through your mind when you get a self tabled request a deadline.

00:47:06:08 - 00:47:06:18
GREG
Yeah

00:47:06:23 - 00:47:14:08
GREG
I've got I've load by Friday at 4:00. Your whole life is geared around Friday 4:00.

00:47:14:10 - 00:47:53:05
GREG
Is your creativity flow between now and Friday 4:00? Or do you need something else? But the thing is, it's like, could we predict the take? Blanchett would have that kind of trip. And that kind of career is driven by her her experience of choosing characters, wanting to curate a career and using self tapes and actor and curate the kind of a character library the character kind of, you know, types, the kind of a character brand that they create because it's your creative space, it's your art studio.

00:47:53:07 - 00:47:59:07
GREG
Sure. You know, it's your I mean, where does a writer go to create, right, right in front of people.

00:47:59:07 - 00:48:06:00
MAX
So in a way, self taping is is given actors a bit more power to help create those different characters.

00:48:06:03 - 00:48:07:05
MAX
Yeah.

00:48:07:07 - 00:48:09:03
GREG
So many actors don't see it,

00:48:09:05 - 00:48:10:02
GREG
but that's what it's

00:48:10:08 - 00:48:24:03
MAX
Well, thank you for your time today, Greg. And I know the actors listening. Really appreciate your advice. So thank you very much. Don't forget to follow and download and listen to more episodes. I'm Max Belmonte and this is to unemployed actors.